Just another question about 351's...

As I said, heads, intakes, headers, they're all higher. If I'm going to put somthing high performance in somthing, why limit it to "non-strokers". I'm not arguing anything either, just pointing out what I've seen.

 

Here are some "details" you may have wanted...

351c:
9.2" tall block
5.78" long rods
Canted valves a'la BBC, so piston notches are unique
2.06/1.65 valves in small port heads (2v)
2.19/1.71 valves in large port heads (4v)
Intakes do not interchange between head styles
351c never came with electronic ignition, but 351m/400/460 distributors fit, so factory electronic can be fitted.
351c has small main journals, therefore it is generally accepted that it spins up better with less heat and friction on the crank.
The rod journals can interchange between all 351s and 400.
The water neck and thermostat is fitted to the cast iron timing cover on the block.
302s in Austrailia were identical to our 351c. Just the crank is de-stroked and the rods are longer. The 302c heads also had even smaller ports than our 2v head. They also had small chambers to make compression with less cubes.
These heads are imported here and used to make mild Clevelands more street friendly.
They are called Aussie 351 heads, but they are actually the 302c parts. Their 351s had the same heads as ours, so it would be pointless to import those.
The 351c main saddles are all set up for 4 bolt main. However, only later engines got 4 bolt main caps. The Boss was the first in 71, then the others were called CJ in 72. The 70 blocks were actually the strongest as they were thickest cast and used more nickel in the alloy (nodular iron). All 70 blocks were 2 bolt main capped though.
In mid-71 all 4v engines went to large open combustion chambers. Previous were closed chambers. The open chambers were a band aid fix to ease EPA concerns over the closed chambers emissions. The open chambers are prone to detonation even at moderate compression ratios. All 2v heads were open chamber. This is another reason the Aussie heads are desired over the 2v heads. The closed chambers can tolerate much more compression on pump gas.
Even though the engine is totally different than 289/302/351w, they all use the same balancers, flywheels, flexplates, clutches, bellhousings, linkages, engine mounts, and pulleys. This makes swapping a breeze if you have room.
The 351c is about the same width as the 351w, even with the Ws larger block, because the C heads are bulkier.
A bonus with the C is that the exhaust ports point down instead of out the side like 302/351w. This helps header clearance as they do not point at the shock towers.
The 351c uses large tube headers where the 351w is very limited to small tubes.
351c can be stroked to 408, but the shorter deck height is more comfortable with 373 cubes (3.75 stroke and 6" rods).
The aftermarket has generally forgotten this engine. There is a slight revival lately, but still light years behind the 351w.

351w:
9.5" tall block
Unique distributor, intake, oil pan, oil pump, oil pump drive.
Water outlet and thermostat are located on the intake manifold.
Large main journals, generally considered to produce more heat and parsitic losses than 302 or C.
Taller block means stroke can go fairly large compared to others.
5.95" rods
Looks like 302 block, just taller. Uses most same external parts like timing cover, water pump, fuel pump, etc.
Many internal parts swap too... More than I can list, but most deal with the valve train. Cams swap but are different firing order, just wire the plugs to the cam.
Heads are generally the same, but the 302 uses smaller head bolts.
The best stock heads were 69-73.
74-76 were the same, but had some added emission passages.
Mid 76 and up were boat anchors.
1.85/1.54 valves on the best years.
Smaller chambers and biggest stock ports as well.
When ported properly, these heads can outflow several aftermarket heads.
69 was the only year for a passenger car 4v intake. Cast iron.
The earlier blocks were thickest and strongest as well.
Watch what you buy aftermarket. Most of the really good stuff uses Cleveland main journals because of the smaller size. The aftermarket blocks can even be had with 302 mains.
The aftermarket has really smiled on the W because of it's kinship to the 302/5.0.

I am sure I forgot plenty, but hope this helps.
Dave

 

Alrighty, first of all, finally SOMEONE answers with an awesome answer, thank you ratio411... second of all, I don't understand why everyone on here is being a jerk to me for no reason. I'm just a kid asking a simple question and you guys are getting on my case because I'm trying to learn something here. I'm sorry I didn't grow to actually see both of these engines. And yes, Jamie, it IS obvious to ME, maybe not everyone, but to me, that the Cleveland and Windsor engine's were assembled in there respective plants... So, I guess I'm sorry for even asking the damn question, but thanks ratio411, for actually giving me an answer i wanted without making me feel like crap...

 

I'm with 'ya, as headers for Clevelands are typically pretty high - especially swap headers. Intakes I think are about the same, and the alloy C heads are a bit more than the Windsors. But then, you either need aftermarket heads or some good port and valve work to get Windsor heads that will equal a stock Cleveland. My whole point is they are about a wash, it just depends on which one you want. You can stroke a Cleveland, but as you said it will cost you more. I personally like the idea of a stroker, but not sure I trust any of them in longetivity.

 

I'd put a good bet down as the stock GT-40's on my Lightning were ported to flow some pretty good numbers. 1262 intakes and 1415 exhaust gaskets were used to do the match, then bowl work and blending from there. Best bang for the buck has to be the Windsor.

 

I agree to disagree - but they're both Fords, so it's a win-win.

 

The context that you put it into made it sound like you were saying it should be obvious to all of us that you possess that knowledge. It was not. We are just trying to help you out. No reason to get all pissed. Been there, done that.

 

Well I dont know about the other guys here that are running stroker engines but the last 393 I built ran for 3 1/2 years on the drag strip was in the car when I sold it, the guy I sold it to ran it for another 1 1/2 year or so on the drag strip. He pulled the engine on the car and sold the body. And as far as I know he still has the engine. So I guess I am sold on the way they will hold up under punishment. If you use good parts the first time you build it, it will last longer and be cheeper in the long run. I will never go back to building a stock displacement 351W. Maybe its just the torque and the HP gains that has you get from a stroker that has become near and dear to my heart. I am going to build another 393 to go in my 69 1/2 but this one will be a full roller set up in a "Heco en Mexico" block, with some higher gearing 3.70:1 not 4.56:1, I might just use the Mexican heads and do a little port work and have 2.02/1.60 walves in them to let it breath a little more. That should put most of the mustangs and all the ricers in thier place around here.

I guess what I am saying is "Dont be afraid, just do it!!!!"

 

I'm doing some planning on a future build for an ealry Comet, so I'm thinking either 351C (shock tower mods) or 331. Never been a fan of the Windsor; that's just me. The 331 would be easier to install, but I'm thinking even a mild Cleveland would run with the 331 with no reliability issues - not that the 331 would have any either. Plus the "wow" factor with the hood up is worth the work. Everyone has a Windsor of some form or another, and more and more have the late model EFI. Great set up, but I just want it to be different. Plus I already have 2 Cleveland blocks, 3 sets of heads, two sets of pistons, etc, etc. But that build is a ways off, so I'm just blathering.

 

Weak part of the 302 based motors are the blocks themselves. As long as you don't rattle the pistons and detonate, you're good for 500rwhp for a while. My last 306 was making over 500rwhp on the jug and had 20+K on it.

Strokers are going to cause more blocks to split, but again, stay around 500 rwhp and under and your set for a while.

 

That is the reason that I am going to use the Mexican block. High nickel content, heavy main webbings, and thicker cylinder walls. Similar to Motorsport blocks. You can get over that 500hp range by studding the main caps and head bolts and the use of main cap and rocker arm girdles. Anything that you can do to stop core stress. There are a lot of W engines out there that are putting out way more than 500rwhp. I know of several that are up in the 700 to 800 hp mark. I know one guy that launches his 65 Mustang with a 289 Clevor engine at 7000 RPM and runs 5.60s in the 1/8th. Yes they rebuild them every winter but they do not have a main crack problem. I also know a guy here that has a 347 in a Fox body he drives every day that has over 80,000 miles on it. As I have said before, build it right the first time and all will be well the rest of the life of the engine. I have known lots of people that have put some very nice parts in there engines and have cut back on things like barrings and things like that. Only later to find out the $30 they saved on the build cost them $2000 later. Nothing worse than dropping a rod out the bottom of the pan just because you wanted to save a little money. I know that everyone can not spend that kind of money on an engine build for a street car and all of the engines that I have seen that have broken have been sprayed with at least 300hp of NOS and have leaned out causing detonation and the engine just self destructed. My point is that if you build it correctly for the application that you are using it for, you will have an engine that will last a very long time. Many things are overlooked in the rebuild prosses and a lot of factors go into how long an engine will last. Engine harmonics is an engines worst enemy, un even weight between piston/rod assemblies is another, timing, over or under carboration, etc, etc etc......... Most people do not do the reasearch on what thier engine needs to make valid HP without sacrificing undue part stress.
That is all I have for now...........

 

Don't want to start a big arguement, but thought I should point out that Ford insiders have long said the Mexican block's strength is urban myth.

They say that casting foundries and methods back then were primative in Mexico compared to the technology needed to make a strong thinwall cast block. Add to that, the low grade of iron available to them in Mexico (not nodular iron by any means), Ford decided that the blocks should be cast very thick to prevent possible shortcomings.

Folks with the engineering know-how and high rank within Ford say the blocks are the same, if not sub-par to thin cast US/Canada blocks. That's enough to keep me from putting Mex-blocks on my shopping list.

My .02
Dave

 

I can also say from experience that putting a stud girdle on it is almost a waste of money, they don't come apart down there, they split in the lifter valley, and cap walk isn't causing that. Unless you already have the girdle, I'd just use main studs and be done.

I know there is another side to the argument, but just talking from experience.