Dyno Testing/Tuning

I have never had a motor ran or tested on a Dyno Machine before, but I am looking into have my new motor for my car broke in (cam) and tuned on a Dyno Machine before installing it in the car. My wife does not really want me to do the cam break in or tuning of my motor in the garage and is giving me some grief about how loud it will be since it will only have uncapped headers on it at that time. I told her I would put some half ass mufflers on it to do the break in and tuning but she is not quite buying that line yet.
I called a shop close to me yesterday to get an idea of what the cost would be and was sort of surprised with their response. They told me that I would get 8 hours on the Dyno machine plus them doing the tuning of the motor themselves with me being there. Their cost was $1,100.00 plus any parts, oil, gas, plugs needed to properly tune the motor. I figured it would be a little costly like maybe $500.00 but was not prepared for that price. Is that the going rate or do any of you other memebers have experience with Dynos and the cost to have your car put on them and tuned, etc?

Thanks
Allen Small

 

I've paid up to $125 an hour for putting my car on the rollers and dyno tuning...engine in the car. 8 hours seems excessive though to me for this procedure.

 

That 8 hour estimate would either have to be for a really comprehensive and detailed tune.. or they are very very slow at ignition and fuel tuning which means you get far fewer runs to dial it all in to get your money's worth. Most I ever did in one stretch was 3 hours, but I was already broke in and moderately tuned to begin with and also did most of my own tuning work. That alone helps save quite a bit when they finally run your credit card at the end.

Most of the bigger shops have various "dyno tune" packages. Some even let you do it yourself and go by the hour with some type of minimum time slot(2 hours or more.. everywhere I've ever been). Probably helps their transition time to get the next customer strapped down and paying for the equipment/electricity, I suppose.

 

Allen,
I think it depends on how picky your tuner is, his experience and what engine you have.

I have an EFI 347 and a picky tuner who is very knowledgeable, likes to experiment and tries get all he can out of the motor.

We did about 30 pulls. It was not cheap.

Micah

 

This guy has been building race motors here in the Pittsburgh area for over 30 years now and he knows his stuff especially on Fords. He said the break in will chew up some of the time a couple hours max. Most of the time would be in the tuning. This is for a 427 Stroker running a two four barrel set up. He says a lot will have to do with the carbs, on how they are set currently versus where they need to be set at as far a jets, needle valves etc. to get the maximum out of the motor. He prefers to tune the motors at full throttle or max RPM for that motor. I spent about two hours on the phone with him yesterday reviewing things with him as far as my actual motor build as to what has been done to it, what I am looking to get out of it, etc.
He told me when he is done, the motor will be set to perform at its maximum capability when I am at the max RPM I want to turn the motor which is at about 5 to 5500 RPMs. I am being a little conservative with the RPMs too. I want the motor to last me a little while.

 

Try Race Car Services On Rt 88 Its A School That Builds For Some Of The Biggest Names In The Biz
I Dont Know What The Would Charge
http://www.rcsoa.com/

 

I paid $500 to have my motor put on a dyno, broke in, and tuned.

 

Mike

That's who I was talking too. The guy knows his stuff thats for sure. Just the price seemed really up there. I was thinking more in the line of what Craig paid. That price just caught me by surprise is all.
I justneed to make some more calls I guess. Thanks for the responses.

Allen Small.

 

my Guy is $75 an hour on rollers...

that may be what it cost to tune that beast. he's looking at the cost of time to strap it down and hook everything up and then unhook everything.
what ignition and fuel are you running?
if it's a full out race engine that might be a decent price.

"a 427 Stroker running a two four barrel set up."

 

That's about right. I was quoted close to that.

 

Their a few other dyno places around
2 on campbells run road..one is called wolfpack..other is Uber? Performance..right across each other by the metal shop.
another is in bridgeville

 

Hi again, Allen. This piece of info quickly caught my eye. I'm not sure if there is some loss in translation here, but if this is in any way shape or form a "street engine"?.. that is entirely the wrong way, more like.. wrong mindset/mentality.. to tune an engine for the street. I see it all the time every season(it gets too damned cold here) and on just about every old style disty coming off the dyno. Peak power and WOT performance within the engines designated rpm range is undoubtedly paramount for a race engine.. BUT.. for a street setup that see's wide variations in throttle angle and steady state cruising?.. you ALWAYS.. and I do mean ALWAYS.. want AVERAGE POWER over the widest possible rpm range. And even all-out race engines respond favorably to fatter power bands, come up onto the converter faster, less gear change rpm drop, etc.

A quick.. well.. the way I talk and type.. maybe "quick" isn't the best word to use here.. "off the top" case in point. 1968 AMX w/ a 401 stroker motor(not sure of CID but remember it being 430+ CID and creeping towards 600 horsepower(570-580 HP maybe). I have a real nice picture saved somewhere on my PC, but don't know if I can find it right now/if it's even acceptable here/or really even matters.. but it's a pretty badass street/strip setup. So, this AMC guy hears good things about me(mainly the.. "he did it for dirt cheap" $$ part) after tuning a friend of a friends Old's Cutlass several years prior after that owner had also run his combo on a semi-local rolling road. So Mr. AMC man gets my number from someone I used to hang around and street race with over in St. Paul and asks if I can come to a local muffler shop in my neighborhood to take a quick peek at his combo just to see if I can possibly help with his cruising/drive-ability issues. Granted it's pretty much just a glorified race car with cheater slicks.. but he wants to drive it on the street more often/take it to some shows and mileage is horrible for such a light car(caged and gutted) by anyone's standards at around 9-10 mpg. He isn't able to be at the shop when I can swing by, but lets the shop owner know I'm coming by to fiddle with it, plus I know the owner well enough already, and we roll it off the lift to start it up out back. With NO MUFFLERS installed yet.. oh what fun that was. lol

So, I hook the vac gauge up, set up a fender style tach I cobbled together from old leftover parts, point a bright light at the mark and guess what? He has a fully locked out timing set to about 36 degrees. Which then forces him to use the MSD 7al-3 boxs start retard function just to pull timing and keep from killing starters. Now, this all fine and dandy for a WOT/peak power kind'a deal.. but not the greatest match for optimizing a street setup. So then I think to myself.. what did the shop do with his primary jetting, bleed sizing, and front to rear jet spread to run this particular number from idle to redline? I pull both bowls shine a mirror around the backside.. it's square jetted! Oh great. Not only has the timing curve been setup for peak rpm/peak power.. but his fuel curve has been tuned around it as well.

Now I'm somewhat curious, committed, and into it this far already, so I want the job. After we talk turkey and work out the job timing and logistics, he agrees to see if I can walk the talk. So, I go back to the muffler shop early the following week and pull a few plugs which look pretty decent. I then re-qualify the MSD disty to once again use it's mechanical curve, get it sprung close to what I guess it needs/might like, hook up its main redeeming quality for any street motor.. a vac advance canister.. and step down the primary 2 sizes and bring up the rear by 2 sizes to keep the AFR and plugs happy. IIRC, some bleed work was also required but is simple to do on the Holley HP series with its replaceable LS/HS bleeds.

The motor responds just as I'd hoped/expected. But now gives over 2 inches more vacuum at idle. IIRC, it went from an erratic + or - 11 inches to over 13 psi without much needle movement at all.. and the mid-range rpm/no-load vacuum reading also rises by more than a full psi as well. Total timing number remained about the same. Now at this point, I'm pretty excited and proud of myself and I REALLY.. REALLY.. want to drive the car just to see what my handiwork has done at this point and color the plugs to check it.. but I don't want an "open exhaust" noise ticket or take the chance at breaking it, so I do some quick bunny hops out back just to see what throttle response and off-idle torque feels like. The car has awesome power to weight. Until the owner quickly comes out and tells me to cool it because his many other previous customers have worn his adjacent business neighbors patience very thin after being there for several years. The 1/8 mile stretch of black marks running out of his parking lot and onto the main road tell the story so I park it back on the lift and take off for the day with full intention to come back when the owner can road test it. I get a call at work the end of the next day and the car owner doesn't even say "Hi" when he starts talking.. which of course immediately concerns me right off the bat. Then he says.. and I quote.. "Greg.. what the hell did you do to my car?" Then there's is a short uncomfortable silence and I think to myself.. crap!.. maybe now it lays over?.. lean surges/pops during higher speed cruise?.. or doesn't make the same peak power he had before? WRONG! He's downright ecstatic and goes on and on about how much better overall the motor runs out under light throttle and "idles so much smoother than before". And most importantly to him.. peak power does not seem to be affected in the least. I told him I was just getting started and that there's probably a bit more left in it if we keep at it. He says.. "nope, this is already more than I had ever hoped for with this cam". He was so happy with the result that he even gave me a $50 bonus. My new best friend for the day, for sure.

Point of all this chattering is this, Allen. Even near full on race cars can utilize much fatter timing curves at idle and light throttle angles simply because of the way an engines part throttle fuel charges speed and density changes with rpm and dynamic compression(running compression). And unless the dyno operator is specifically looking to maximize efficiency and throttle response in the sub-3,000 rpm range?.. and very few do..yes even some of the "good ones" put too much stock in flattening out AFR readings(which goes completely out the door when trying to improve idle/part throttle lean burn characteristics).. you'll always end up falling short of the optimum tune.

Having a choice of several types of tests to do, and seeing what the results on the track are, most street tuners will choose to implement at LEAST 1-2 steady state tests over doing all sweep tests. While the sweep tests will show bigger numbers(be very cautious of bigger rpm steps because they are not giving real world simulations of high gear ratio loading/aerodynamic losses(does your car really accelerate at 600 rpm/sec on the top end of high gear?), without a doubt the steady state test mode is the most consistently superior method of tuning, and anybody who has the capability to do it will echo that sentiment and it's usually only an arguable point with those who can't do it, or will take the appropriate time needed to do it properly.

To be even more specific.. generally, optimizing b.s.f.c numbers is where it's at for any engine.. and as b.s.f.c. numbers are lowered throughout the rpm range.. and without an attending loss in power, throttle response sharpens and acceleration times are typically quicker. Both ignition spark and fuel delivery can affect b.s.f.c. performance, as can mixture quality, contaminated combustion, parasitic losses on an engine. etc.. etc. When performing dyno tests to evaluate engine modifications, I myself prefer to work towards minimizing b.s.f.c. numbers however possible. Since peak torque and minimum b.s.f.c. typically occur at or near the same engine speed, it's an excellent measure of an engines outright design efficiency. And what works for the goose doesn't always work for the gander.

You may also consider saving some cash on the front end by just doing a break-in.. then a baseline to moderate tune while on the stand.. and following that up with a much more comprehensive.. and considerably more realistic.. chassis dyno tune to tailor the whole package to your entire drivetrain/chassis combination. Then the last little bit gets done at the track.

PS. sorry for the long read. This kind'a stuff should teach me not to have the laptop out in the shop while I'm working on my own horsepower.

 

Groberts101,

This is basically a street motor with a little punch to say. It was originally built to be a race motor, but I changed directions wit the build so I pulled the solid lift cam out of it and toned it down some to make it a lot more streetable. Later tonight or sometime tomorrow I will list what all has been done to this motor so you can understand it better in my build thread that I have started for this car.
I have decided I will break it in with some mock up mufflers to keep it quite, getting running decent after the break in and take it for exhaust work and inspection. Then to a shop that has a chassis dyno. They are right were everyone else has been saying 4-5 hundred bucks.
This guy I have been talking to is very good at what he does and after speaking with him again depth understand why is price is where it is, but at this stage in time I am not quite ready for what he can do me. I am sure once he finished tuning the motor it would run at its highest potential. He is well aware that this is a street car and not a race car but believes no matter what type car it is it should be tuned to operate at its highest potential which I agree, but I am not ready for that right at this moment. I have a lot of other areas that can use the money now instead of on a Dyno tune.
Thanks for all the info you noted your post! It is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Allen Small

 

I agree with him. if it has race components it should be dynoed to WOT. for street it needs to be built with a lot lower power range.
I try to build my engines for the bottom end (1500-5500), more fun to play with...JMO
my LSX is stock bottom end and had it dynoed at 6200 RPMs. tuner said it had more...

 

Allen,

You are going to have so much torque with that 427, you will have a tough time hooking it up even with a mediocre tune.