If the heads are a fair trade then.. MAYBE they might be worth it for slight gains over what you already have if that stuff is already worn out a bit. But personally speaking, they're not worth the top-end gaskets required to do the swap IMO. If you want to run them because they're just another stepping stone along the way for your build?.. nip the heck out of them(around .040-.050) and be sure to port those anemic exhaust ports at the very least while you're doing a 4-5 angle valve job. Otherwise.. don't bother with the swap because you'll be let down by the results for the time and cash spent on it. Save the cash and put it towards fresh aftermarket AL heads for more flow AND weight savings where it really counts. As for the plugs?.. what did they look like before you started fooling about with all this stuff? And please refresh us all on the cam being used. With 21 inches of vacuum.. I'm guessing it can't be much more than an RV cam at most. And are the springs matched to it as well.. and what's their age and rated open/closed pressures?
Most of us don't build engines to run on dynos. We build em to run em in REAL driving situations, in real cars. And show me someone who "knows it all" and I'll show you someone who's a moron. Over the years I've bought many parts that were supposedly "well engineered", but yet found more ways to further improve on these parts. And I'm not the only one who's done so. Right now I'm working on yet another "well engineered" kit (Modern Driveline hydro clutch kit) that fell short of expectations. If you're content with parts you buy "as they are" then good for you, You're just loosing out on possible gains to be had that you'll never know you've missed. You talk a good game, but you continue to exhibit that superiority complex we've come to expect from you. No surprise there. If you want to continue to exclusively rely on advice from Holley to tune your carbs, then good for you. But don't sit there and put down everyone who's got a differing opinion from your own. You do NOT know it all.
This thread was going good and the OP was actually getting help with his problem by following Grobert's suggestions. When he mentioned your name in post #9 he did it with respect indicating your vast knowledge about engines and it seems like you jumped in with a bad attitude. Time to chill. I've learned a lot about tuning and carbs in the last six weeks and my car is running better then ever by following that guy with the the superiority complex because he explains things in a way that makes sense. Obviously you both know a lot about motors but one of you is a much better communicator...
lol.. yeah.. only the guys who want to gain the most bang for their buck do that kind of tuning before it ever sets tires on a street or track. Bunch'a silly world record holders, they are. And the only one who waves their willy around when their tuning moxy.. or for that matter.. any other knowledge base.. is questioned?.. is YOU! And for the record(while you're in the mood to compare real world experience).. I study techniques and buy books used and written by some of the top engine builders in the world.. and modify EVERYTHING relating to carb's and induction systems according to those studies. And.. upgrade components wherever and whenever possible(yes.. even when they;'re brand new parts that have never been used) because I know how economics work from the standpoint of parts used to bolster a companies bottom line. As to the personal attacks that we come to expect from.. you?.. you really should just stick to the things you know unless you're willing to take those blinders off and look for that last .004% of improvement no matter how insignificant it may seem to some folks. It's all cumulative and every little bit adds up in the end. Nostalgia and old school is cool and all.. and I honestly do dig your rides.. but it ain't even close to the fastest way to do things any more. Time and technique marches onwards.. and so shall I. Just for schnits and giggles.. let's compare time slips and power output per cubic inch some day. Heck.. maybe even throw in some cam spec's and manifold vacuum numbers to make things more interesting too. My little over achieving 302 is coming right along so far and it will surprise many folks regardless of how long they've been tuning carbs and whatnot. Toot.. toot.. goes my horn!
Y'all have fun, but don't run each other off because I enjoy reading the info both of you give us... I'm a blank slate that needs everyone's input..lol..
lol.. who needs moody chicks when there's folks like you who can argue just like one. Twisting and contorting everything to mean something else.. and then end up being every one else's fault. You.. and only you.. came into this thread in a combative nature with your funny little emoticon's and bashing anyone who doesn't follow your.. "I speak the SBF gospel".. like leadership. Word of advice about leadership.. or just plain dropping off those block sized chips from your shoulders.. you can know everything there is to possibly know about something.. or even everything.. but no one really wants to follow the tail end of a donkey, if you catch my drift. PS. Oh.. and regardless of what you seem to think about my demeanor or tuning knowledge.. Josh would be the second guy around this joint that I've helped dial in his tuneup over the phone(not counting the numerous members helped via PM's). Actually HELPING someone in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner seems to be what you're missing while tossing all that ego about. Feels kinda cool to help others without the need for anything more than a simple.. "thank you and have a good day".. in return . You should try it some time.
There's a difference between "bog" and "lag". A Bog is a sudden lean condition that causes a sudden loss of power or acceleration and then a sudden recovery where it is felt as a surge in power. I don't believe Baddad's engine was "bogging" when he felt a surge of power. Case in point: A turbo-charged engine lags until the turbocharger spools up (at a higher rpm) at which point the power comes on and throws you back in the seat. It was never "bogging". A naturally aspirated engine that makes its power between 4000 and 6000 RPM lags until it hits about 3800 RPM, at which point the power comes on and throws you back in the seat. It was never "bogging", but rather low on torque below 4000 RPM. If your secondaries are opening too fast, the engine will experience a bog, but a perceived surge in acceleration when reaching a certain RPM is not bogging, and does not mean there is anything wrong with the way the engine is tuned or set up.
You've got a lot of room here giving this advice. Once again, this is the pot calling the kettle black. Everything was hunky dory until you injected your assumptions as to what I was offering as advice. I'm not the one who injected ego into this, that was your doing. Now all that aside, I want you to once again explain why using the stiffer secondary spring somehow offers better acceleration over a lighter spring. I long ago accepted the performance of Holley's choice of springs, until one day I bought the sec spring assortment (that costs $12-$15) and found that going to a lighter spring paid off in a quicker acceleration. There was no "bog" prior to the secondaries opening with this lighter spring, contrary to what you believe, there was no lag in acceleration prior to them "kicking in" The engine was not struggling to rev up and move the vehicle. There was no down side to installing the lighter springs at all. This simple and cheap mod WORKS. You've told everyone that a stock headed 302 will not benefit from this mod, citing your cfm calculations (which are flawed as they do not reflect what any engine really draws in) Calculating cfm requirements are a tool only to be used in picking a carb, what any engine actually moves thru it has time and time again shown these calculations to be off. If an engine responds to an earlier secondary opening, how is this not a good idea ? Using your thoughts, a later secondary opening can also result in the engine struggling to move the vehicle as the delay in opening could be starving the engine as far as what fuel and air it wants and can handle. You would not know the answer to this question, if you accepted that advice from Holley and left the stiffer secondary spring in place. There is no "one size fits all" here. That's the point I was trying to get across when I mentioned the thing about further exploring and finding room for improvement in aftermarket parts. This is what hot rodding is all about.
Actually.. now that I really read what you said before.. you're right. A low compression 302 with 80's heads vs a 331 with AL heads really aren't that far apart in airflow requirement. He should be upping his main jets(maybe something like 88's in the front to replace his little 64's?) and running the lightest secondary spring he can get in there to really fly past his 5,500 rpm redline. Maybe even clip the spring to get it to act just like a double pumper when he installs that 50cc accelerator pump up front. Yeehaa.. he better hold on! With those massive flowing 80's style heads(I think the compression is way up there around 8.5 and the exhaust port is flowing something crazy like 95 cfm!), HUGE mid-range cam, all working together to feed his massive 2 inch exhaust system that flows 400+ cfm per bank.. you're advice seems right on target. My bad.. carry on and let the good times roll.
I could help settle the debate by simulated 1/4 run on dyno with both recommended springs and see what the numbers say??!! But seriously I'm going to the dyno soon lol.
Really ? Who's throwing a temper tantrum ? I've ego problem? You cannot carry on an intelligent conversation can you ? Why not instead of sitting there and typing crap, and spouting numbers, go out and try things to actually see where you're wrong. And cease with your poo-pooing what anyone who disagrees with you thinks. This is like arguing with an eight year old.
Exactly! And.. now you know how it feels for the rest of us around here if we dare disagree with your god like knowledge. We usually get verbal spankings with a poke in the eye just for good measure and a tad more spite. Seeeriioously though.. you should really consider taking your own advice as you often misinterpret simple chain yanks as far more than their intended to be. Have to remember that what comes around.. goes around. No tantrums here.. just good old fashioned jabbing at an over-sized ego, is all. The bigger the ego.. the more it seem's to hurt. Regardless of how many cars we've tuned between us(sounds well into the hundreds they way we often talk).. this guy will end up springing his secondaries where he's happy. Chassis dyno's don't lie very hard. :Handshake
